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by H-G
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Support following the bereavement of a family member, partner, spouse or someone close to you.

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by smallwolf
2 days and 7 hours ago

Topic: Marriage breakup + kids

  1. ecomama
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    ecomama avatar
    1629 posts
    16 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    Many stars to align & many tiny little windows... that's what to keep lookout for.

    It helped alot that I'd studied FL as my preoccupation for c2y before this occurred for me.

    No lol ofcourse I didn't mean to get housemates in whilst exW was still there. Heavens.
    BUT she has made noises of wanting to get out, she may indeed do this earlier than you think. (It could bring other issues but if she does then it's a financial "window").

    The fine line in FL and for taxation purposes also is that housemates (as opposed to "tenants") you do not have to declare this as "income"for taxation purposes, nor do you have any real "issues" in FL. I didn't. I had students in here for months during my Court cases, my Lawyer said 'too bad if ex finds out'. ex did not financially benefit whatsoever.
    BUT getting this income happening asap - meaning having all your ducks in a row to get them in asap - means there is evidence which gives banks consideration in the matter of increased income.
    Also no tenancy agreement means if things go awry and you have to sell, then no real legal issues with everyone getting out.
    = a WINDOW.

    I'll be frank - the car has to go - In your "window". You decide when that window is. I know the whole "car thing" is important to some, not me, but this is a series of Catch 22s for you about when to sell it. Having a thorough think through the Catch 22s and just making a decision about which path is the one with less impact and greater gain for you is what you're looking for in the varied balance sheets you can draw up. Consider your own suggestion of this timing. Yes.
    If you CAN'T borrow for home alone! It's a total no brainer the car has to go. You can't live in your car nor make any money off of it with housemates either. No brainer. It's a depreciation issue vs an appreciation / investment thing. Plus being plain sensible.

    The pool loan IDK if that can be taken on by your dad in another "window" ie before your formal application goes through with bank.

    I had these ducks in a row in my case. NOT comfortably with tens of thousands to legals that year. But I made it - JUST.

    So I guess the aim is to clear all extraneous loans / liabilities and NO credit card if poss (they are a total killer for close shave mortgage apps).

    Then having the extra income from business shown AND housemates for extra consideration by banks - that's the best you could do to get the house from my perspective.

    Wild cards: payout to exW & legal fees.

    EM

    1 person found this helpful
  2. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    16 September 2020 in reply to ecomama
    Hi EM

    Hope you had a good day.

    Yeah everything would need to align and be perfect to keep the house. I am working the next few nights to get the ball rolling on my venture. I may even start my other career skill set side hustle to try and get more income in the mean time. Would be cash in hand but would have to declare it and have a receipt book to prove it all.

    Sorry I knew you wouldn't of meant housemates in the house now. I was confused on that. Still not sure about that with the kids. If they are "housemates", obviously it wouldn't require paperwork but I assume you would still do all the necessary background checks and take bond?

    Once the property pool has been settled (probably excluding house if valuations are still going ahead) and the car has been used as a debt/liability, can it be sold straight after? I think I need to go see an accountant for all of this.

    Can a loan (pool) be transferred to someone else? Can it be transferred back again? Not sure if this is possible with dads pension/accountant. Can always ask him.

    It sounds like you just got over the line with your loan. As I said before, different calculators give me different numbers. But I would need to speak to a mortgage broker later once valuations are done to see.

    Would it be a positive or negative to clear the small card debts before mediation? Not that I can though.

    I don't know what's going to happen with exWs side of mediation, when and if it happens. Also not sure how much longer she is willing/going to stay in house.

    I just wonder how much help I can get from my parents. I don't even know if they would or can go guarantor for like 10-15% of the loan. I asked previously but they couldn't/wouldn't.

    Feeling a bit under the weather. Must be this keto like flu from not eating much. Feel like I am wasting away. Will keep trying to eat.

    Thanks

    dl23
    1 person found this helpful
  3. Mr Paul
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    286 posts
    16 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    I can relate to the lack of apatite and the weight loss.

    Before you start changing names on loans, you should get some legal advice from a FL specialist. At the moment, the debt is joint debt; if you move the pool/car loan to your parents, it become your debt. The transfer may help your borrowing capacity, but it will cost you more in the long run.

    Any additional income you earn will also go into the pool. Once again, something you should talk to a lawyer about.

    In regard to the property pool, the house is always included. Once you have an agreement at mediation, that agreement has to be turned into Consent Orders (CO) and/or a Binding Financial agreement (BFA). There is no property settlement without COs and/or BFA.

    If you can keep the house, it will be in the CO or the BFA. If you can't keep the house, it will go on the market after the COs and/or BFA is in place. Either way, the house has to be valued. If you have consensus, the valuation can be by agreement; if not, an official FL valuation will be needed. Another $1000 plus down the drain.

    The more you sink into the house, the more it will cost you to buy it off your wife. It's a catch 22 situation.

    Sometimes, the best action is inaction!

    1 person found this helpful
  4. ecomama
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    1629 posts
    16 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    Hi dl,
    "I may even start my other career skill set side hustle to try and get more income"
    If you declare this then it can be counted as income.

    "If they are "housemates" ... I assume you would still do all the necessary background checks and take bond?"
    Definitely do background checks. IDK about other stuff sorry.

    "Once the property pool has been settled (probably excluding house if valuations are still going ahead) and the car has been used as a debt/liability, can it be sold straight after? I think I need to go see an accountant for all of this."
    "Property pool" cannot exclude house. I think you mean who is taking on what debt etc. I envisage Mediation for property will include ALL at once, including house. It may not go ahead UNTIL Valuation is done.
    You need to see a Family Lawyer for this not an accountant. Accountants no nothing of FL (heck I wonder if some FLs do some times).

    "Can a loan (pool) be transferred to someone else? Can it be transferred back again? Not sure if this is possible with dads pension/accountant. Can always ask him."
    No idea. It's attached to the house so very problematic.

    "I would need to speak to a mortgage broker later once valuations are done to see."
    Personally I avoid brokers like the plague but your choice.

    "Would it be a positive or negative to clear the small card debts before mediation? Not that I can though."
    A FL would know this answer for you.
    I wouldn't. All debts are split.
    If you can't then there's your answer.

    "I just wonder how much help I can get from my parents. I don't even know if they would or can go guarantor for like 10-15% of the loan. I asked previously but they couldn't/wouldn't."
    I believe the Royal Commission wiped "guarantor" stuff completely out.
    In my understanding no they can't.
    Their AGES count if they were to "share the house" on paper. They have to be well under 70 or 75yo AND working to do this OR have many many properties with equity to borrow against.
    Too "high risk" at their age.
    That's a question for your Bank Loans advisor.

    EM

    1 person found this helpful
  5. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    16 September 2020 in reply to Mr Paul
    Hi Mr Paul

    Definitely not nice feeling like this with the lack of appetite and weight loss.

    Will get legal advice regarding loan name changing. Was only thinking about it for down the track, after property mediation.

    I thought earning more income was okay but any money left in the bank is split?

    I will just let mediation guide everything at this stage and let the valuations and let anything that needs to happen, happen at that point in time.

    I waa just referring to the extra debts outside of the house with regards to the car.

    Thanks

    dl23
  6. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    16 September 2020 in reply to ecomama
    Hi EM

    Spent a few hours on my venture. Exhausted. Didn't make to much of a dent into it yet.

    Will get legal advice about the pool. If the loan is still separate to the mortgage, maybe there is something that can be done. IDK. It is still part of the house but could be in a different name.

    I will talk to banks about home loan but much later down the track. Not now.

    With regards to the guarantor, you are right. I don't think it's actually possible unless the guarantor is still working and is very well off.

    The mountain seems to be getting bigger and bigger to climb.

    Thanks

    dl23
  7. ecomama
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    1629 posts
    16 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    Indeed it's a lot of work.

    I don't think you understand the timing of it all.

    The thing is, you will have to work out (with a Bank or whomever), IF you can borrow for the house alone before Property Mediation / Settlement negotiations.

    This fact must be known by you beforehand.

    Not after.

    You won't have time AFTER Property Settlement to work out with banks etc if you can keep the house. It's too late by then. No one "waits for you" to increase income, and apply for mortgages etc.

    No one will be delaying things for you to work this all out. Mediators won't wait for you and they won't "guide" you about what to do.

    It's your responsibility to find out beforehand. A Family Lawyer would be advising you of this process and the timing.

    This happens fast.

    BUT there is a "window" of time after Settlement to do all we've spoken of ie:
    * sell car
    * pay out pool loan
    * pay out then cut up an end any credit cards
    * complete mortgage approval (the pre-approval would be lodged and waiting to be pushed through)
    * Payout to exW.
    I have no idea HOW LONG your window will be but I extended mine to 3 months.

    I was told by Banks that the "guarantor" status does not exist any more. It's a very old fashioned concept now.
    It's been wiped.
    (there's a way via 'dual occupancy' whereby the relative LIVES in the home with you but in this case they must have the cash to buy a % or be working and qualify for the mortgage just like you - the mortgage must be completely paid off by said person's 70th - 75th birthday, so it reduces the loan duration in the application and ALL parties must be able to finance this higher loan repayment / shorter mortgage duration etc).

    All this information would be known to you if you had spoken with Banks.

    Because you seem pushed for time, your dad could phone a Bank and talk with them on behalf of you but I seem to think he gets things a little muddled (listening to REA in regards to mortgages etc).

    I doubt the pool LOAN can be shifted to another person who doesn't own the home (it won't make sense to lenders).
    But it could paid OUT by another person in the "window" mentioned above.

    All the things I spoke of like paying out pool loan, selling car etc is during this "window" NOT before Property Mediation / Settlement. (Doing it before would be giving exW half - not sensible).

    EM

    1 person found this helpful
  8. Mr Paul
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    286 posts
    17 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    Hi dl

    "The mountain seems to be getting bigger and bigger to climb."

    I agree. There is another option that you might want to revisit.

    If you agree to sell the house at mediation, the proceeds will hopefully clear the marital debt - house mortgage, car, pool, etc.. You and your exW will leave the marriage with nothing, but neither of you will have any debt (apart from the boys), into the future.

    Once you are free of marital debt, your borrowing capacity will be limited by your income and child maintenance commitments. At this point, you can approach the bank knowing your financial situation.

    The car you have, would have been paid for from the sale of the house. You can sell the car at this point, if you want the extra money as a house deposit.

    To my mind, it might be easier to refinance and buy another smaller house after property settlement. Given the state of the housing market this might easier.

    Just at thought, if that mountain in front of you is insurmountable.

    3 people found this helpful
  9. ecomama
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    ecomama avatar
    1629 posts
    17 September 2020 in reply to Mr Paul

    I agree with Mr Paul about knowing your Plan B.

    What you mentioned several posts ago, dl23, was that the house sale amount may be less than the mortgage + pool loan. That is a dire situation whereby each of you may leave with debt for these ongoing. The market appears to be going down, not sure in your area. (People are rushing to our area so it's stable if not increasing which is a sign of the times. People selling in the city, coming here to get something they can afford - for the time being).

    Also the factor of your car being worth more than exWs... if this is so.
    It may be a "marital debt" but if it is worth more than hers then this needs to be tabled & equalised.
    Cars go off published market value also.

    The first thing I thought about your situation this morning dl23 is that you need to have a Plan B.

    Another "liability" for your Loan application is a Child Support Assessment from the Child Support Agency. Being a separation / divorce situation with children, the Banks will demand this paperwork. I know a couple who just drew down $20K each from their Super in hopes to put a deposit on a home. The man had to present a CSA and he was $13K in debt. This has to be paid out before they would look at their Loan App.

    Ofcourse you won't have this kind of debt atm. But if exW earns less than you and the children are 50% care then you will have to pay Child Support. Either way the children are not only calculated as liabilities at 50% but also the Child Support you pay is a liability.

    EM

    1 person found this helpful
  10. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    17 September 2020 in reply to ecomama
    Morning EM and Mr Paul

    Thanks for all the advice.

    I will seek legal advice very soon regarding all of this.

    I see your point EM regarding the "window" to reduce debt. I know I wouldn't be able to do it before mediation. I am in talks with my dad with regards to this. I am constantly thinking about different angles. If I could have all that debt wiped, the question would it be enough to get over the line.

    I know the online calculators aren't completely accurate but even when I put in extra income in as say $200/week, my borrowing capacity increases significantly. I will be talking to some banks over the phone/online about my capacity. I am not sure on the %LVR of refinance but I did read somewhere it was 95% of house value. I could be wrong.

    My car has has only 3k equity approx but is worth 20k more than exW. But my debt is 32k more. So I am not sure how the numbers crunch for this. I think it is in my favour due to the debt?

    I guess it is a catch22 with increasing income. Pay more child support but as you mentioned not until 2022 (not sure if I am correct there) but at the same time my borrowing capacity increases.

    Plan B is to sell the house. I still think the house will come just over loan but I don't know how bad/good the market is in my area.

    Thanks

    dl23
    1 person found this helpful
  11. ecomama
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    ecomama avatar
    1629 posts
    17 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    "I will seek legal advice very soon regarding all of this."
    Excellent. Get your questions ready.

    'I see your point EM regarding the "window" to reduce debt. I know I wouldn't be able to do it before mediation.... I am constantly thinking about different angles."
    Yes. We may drive ourselves quite insane trying to do it. But do it we must to KNOW that we did our very best. You are doing really well.

    "I know the online calculators aren't completely accurate but even when I put in extra income in as say $200/week, my borrowing capacity increases significantly.
    I am not sure on the %LVR of refinance but I did read somewhere it was 95% of house value. I could be wrong."
    Yes indeed it increases fast!
    I think that's the UPPER % of how much Banks are willing to lend. They vary.
    (I had around $500K equity and it was still a close shave bec if my age and 100% care for all children).
    The Valuation is a Catch22 for us trying to buy out the other.

    "My car has has only 3k equity approx but is worth 20k more than exW. But my debt is 32k more.. I think it is in my favour due to the debt?"
    No one cares what debts you CHOOSE to take with you. That's completely all on you.
    During the figuring OUT stage - debt is split 50/50, so none of it is "your" debt.
    Difficult to type out here, easier with a spreadsheet. And knowing EXACT figures but of EVERYTHING. Nothing is separated into "things", it's ALL thrown into the mix. Assets Liabilities.

    "Pay more child support but as you mentioned not until 2022 (not sure if I am correct there) but at the same time my borrowing capacity increases."
    Yes correct UNLESS exW puts in for a CSA asap which I think she will!
    But you ALSO must show Banks a CSA for your borrowing capacity. Banks want to know HOW MUCH Child Support you have to pay and count this as a Liability on top of 50% children - they use their own calculations about how much children cost.

    "I still think the house will come just over loan but I don't know how bad/good the market is in my area."
    THIS is the "Wild Card".
    Once you commit to a FL Valuation, you can't go back.
    It's a gamble.
    Banks USE THIS FL Valuation and do not do their own Valuation. So there's no time to wait to increase value of property etc.
    It's a total transparent / straight down the line process.

    EM

    1 person found this helpful
  12. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    18 September 2020 in reply to ecomama
    Thanks EM

    A lot to take in.

    I am trying to remain positive about the house and everything but it is hard.

    I am being realistic that there is only small percentage chance of keeping the house. Even without being asked about any loans/debts, when I rang current back all they asked for was income and school fees. I was well short but they were going off 80% LVR.

    I will ask banks whether with or without the debts, how much can I borrow. I am wishfully thinking my dad could help pay off debts (I would sell car) and I pay him back possibly if given an interest only period.

    I am still trying to increase income to help out. But that alone may not be enough. I need to start talking to people.

    Just so down lately. Trying to be positive but it is so hard. The idea of losing the house is not helping. Going to work is hard. Being in the house is hard. Being mixed up in different emotions is hard. The Why and how questions keep running around in my head even when I try not to think about it. I have no energy and no motivation for anything. I think exW has pschologically/emotionally damaged me to the point that I can't bear to see her or speak to her ever again. Not that she would with me anyway.

    I hope you are having a nice day.

    Thanks

    dl23


    1 person found this helpful
  13. ecomama
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    1629 posts
    18 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    Dear dl23

    It's extremely difficult managing our emotions during this time. Those that have emotions about it anyway.

    I want to say acknowledge your grief and cry it out whenever you can. I found being in the shower with music on a good time to cry, since I had kids with me all the time or was at work or in Lawyers offices OR on the phone constantly.
    This "timed" my grief session in a way. But I couldn't afford for it to envelope me. I had work to do and no one would do it for me.

    Over time I cried less. Took baths instead lol.

    It's an emotional scar we bare but turned around, it's a powerful tool for empathy.
    For me it was motivation also.

    When your FL case is done - whatever the outcome, you'll have time to grieve more fully and accept this. It's like a death of what you thought you had. And grief is inevitable for those of us who've suffered from it.

    MANY things took my grief away in chunks!
    KNOWING the other helped alot.
    Knowing what he was doing indeed made me never ever want or need to have anything to do with it.
    Chumplady online was AWESOME. I could laugh and laugh at the stupidity and vanity and a whole lot more.

    Knowing myself helped the rest. Seeing my strength and power throughout this. I surprised myself! I'm proud of myself now.

    I survived and you will too. You will because life is more than one person, more than one house, more than one marriage. So much more.

    With help you will surpass your grief. Grow stronger. Know more. Heal.
    Maybe even love again but with eyes wide open!

    We are formulating our Family Trust now! lol... my bfs family have had one for 50 years and it stopped ALL attempts of others taking their fortune.
    I admire this so much. Such smart people knowing the reality of this world.

    All of my children are committed to buying property alone and we will envelope each property into the Family Trust. Two more added next year. I need to find out if expensive cars are added also... mmm another question for my Lawyer.
    So long suckers lol.

    You'll learn how much one person took from you and I'm sure you will not let this happen again.

    Thinking of you. You're doing REALLY well.

    EM

    1 person found this helpful
  14. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    18 September 2020 in reply to ecomama
    I was sent this, this morning. Wow. I am going to have to tell the boys or tell her before I move my stuff, the boys need to know. I don't know if I should just tell oldest one like she wanted and tell youngest later or tell them both at the same time

    exW message: "I'll do this at this ridiculous place, that is no where near our residence, going to the stupid seminar, if you move your stuff out of the upstairs area by the end of the week.
    Or I'll move it.
    We are not together, you should not be going in my bedroom.
    I note you didn't agree to put the house on the market again.
    Did you know there are limited rental opportunities available now and it will get worse by next year. Well done."


    And she sent it when I am at work. I can not talk to her at mediation even though they insisted we do. Ruined my day.
  15. Mr Paul
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    286 posts
    18 September 2020 in reply to ecomama

    Hi Guy's

    Here is a link, that might be of some help. I recall EM mentioning Chump Lady some time ago.

    https://www.chumplady.com/2012/06/untangling-the-skein-of-fuckupedness/

    Dl, I think you are still trying to untangle the impossible "skein". In the words of Chump Lady, "Stop it .... You only get to figure out YOU. What your values are, what you will tolerate, and what is acceptable and unacceptable to YOU. That’s it".

    You will get through this! Stay focused!

    2 people found this helpful
  16. Mr Paul
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    Mr Paul avatar
    286 posts
    18 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    Sorry dl, your last post came in while I was posting to you.

    In response to your wife's message, nothing has changed.

    If you have a second bathroom, you might want to consider moving your stuff out of the master bedroom. If the upstairs area in common space, then what you do in that space is your business.

    Whatever you do, do not get into a silly argument over things that do not matter. Your wife is looking for an argument because she is not getting what she wants. It will most likely get worse.

    Stay focused on what has to be done. Do not let your W sidetrack you on issues that do not matter. Gray rock is your best defense.

    1 person found this helpful
  17. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    18 September 2020 in reply to Mr Paul
    Hi Mr Paul and EM

    Thank you for your support. Today has been a really hard and emotional day. To be sent that message in the early morning was pretty poor form.

    I have a second bathroom downstairs that I will have to share with the boys. She talks about it being "her" bedroom. Obviously the kids will need to be told. I just wonder if I should just tell the oldest and the youngest waits til later, as exW said before. I think I will need to tell them tonight. Oldest son is coming back from camp and will be really happy. I am not sure if I can do that to him tonight. I guess end of the week exW mentioned would be Sunday.

    I guess true colours do come out in the end. I haven't responded to hardly anything recently and if I have had to, it's been a yes or no answer.

    She makes it like mediation is an option. Like a negotiation. Obviously she didn't follow through with the court threats in the end.

    This is something I need to talk to psych about and also a lawyer.

    Thanks again

    dl23
  18. Mr Paul
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    286 posts
    18 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    She talks about it being "her" bedroom

    I agree, but it is not worth arguing about. If push come to shove, exW cannot tell you what to do and vice versa.

    I guess true colours do come out in the end

    They do. It will get worse; be prepared for more to come.

    She makes it like mediation is an option.

    To your wife, mediation is an option. She wants to leave you with the debt. She has no interest in working out what is fair. My exW did the same. She could not think past what she wanted. What I wanted did not matter.

    ... and also a lawyer.

    I do think you should engage a lawyer. They will ask for a few thousand in there trust account, but will only charge you for what they do. If their services are not needed, the unused money in the trust account is refunded. You will need a lawyer for mediation once an agreement has been reached.

    I can not talk to her at mediation even though they insisted we do

    I think this is common; my wife did the same when we went to mediation. It's not a big deal; it just means your wife is insecure and is not willing to take ownership of her poor behavior.

    1 person found this helpful
  19. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    18 September 2020 in reply to Mr Paul
    Hi Mr Paul.

    How is everything on your with what you are going through?

    I am not responding to her text, the same as I didn't respond to her previous email. In the past I may have but I now follow gray rock/180 and I am respectful/civil. She is being right out nasty to me. I have responded to her twice with 3 words in nearly 2 weeks - yes and no answers only.

    Will see a lawyer. As mentioned on the phone before, the lawyer might be able to see me over the weekend. Will get my questions ready.

    What I meant by the mediation and I can not talk to her is, I don't know if I can ever talk to her again or even see her at all after all of this. She has damaged me psychologically/emotionally. She thought 'I" was "emotionally abusive". At least I admitted my mistakes even though I didn't even know about this so called "abuse".

    Thanks for calming me down. I know from all the info you have shared, your experience with your situation is very sad.

    Thanks

    dl23
  20. ecomama
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    1629 posts
    18 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    Hi dl23

    exW is just throwing a tanty at you, even though it's minimal. She restrained herself.

    I'm glad you didn't leave that letter to her on her bedside table, I kind of freaked at that.

    Personal space during separation under one roof is exceptionally important. Most esp to the person who WANTS to separate. I was that person after years of bs, so I get it.

    I know you've said that you accept the separation but from your shock at today's email and your words... I don't think you have. That's okay! It's just that a paradigm shift in your mind over separating everything and leaving HUGE personal space between you.... must occur.

    You must realise that it's completely over.
    All your actions, words, thoughts must follow this vein.

    So if you FEEL separated then getting the spare room organised would have been a "yeah let's do it" - yourself.
    You stuff would already have been out of her bedroom.
    You would have already avoided her areas entirely.
    Lock on your bedroom door to allay snooping.
    Kids would have been told.

    No prodding necessary.

    Also you saying you don't think you could talk to her ever again?
    Dl23 exW is SHOWING you she wants nothing to do with you. Now.
    Later I predict she'll want even less. Maybe even NO CONTACT.

    It's tricky doing this whilst "co" - parenting lol, it's more likely you'll each be parenting separately with no contact. ie IF you respect her wishes.

    Ignore the snide pokes at you in any communications. She's trying to poke the bear, get a reaction but moreso manipulate you to do exactly as she wants, exactly WHEN she wants it. Veruca Salt in "Charlie and the chocolate factory" comes to mind. A brat who demands everything on HER command and throws horrible tantrums when she doesn't get it EXACTLY.

    exW will get what she wants - a divorce.

    NO ONE gets what they want by Family Law. But at least she'll get what she asked for eventually. Too bad about the timing for her. Too bad about her copping 50% debt she thinks isn't hers. It's not your fault Mediation is taking this long.

    It's going to get worse when she finds out about the debts. As Mr Paul and I agree it can get a lot worse than that even.

    Ignore what you can. Follow through on ALL things to separate.

    EM

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  21. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    18 September 2020 in reply to ecomama
    Hi EM

    I have been patiently waiting for your response πŸ™‚.

    I do accept the separation but to be nasty is a whole different story and message me in the morning at work. I have been nothing but respectful and civil and I thought she was for a while until mediation didn't happen straight away.

    I am fine not seeing or talking to her later anyway, so I really don't care honestly that she feels the same way.

    She seems to think it's all my fault mediation is taking a long time and that it's my fault for choosing the FL pathway, when it is the proper process to follow, not her process.

    I am not sure the debts will be a shock to her. She knows about all the debts and I am pretty sure she knows it will be 50/50. Did you mean something else? I am a bit exhausted.

    I guess a trip to bunnings to sort out temp shelving/draws for clothing is in order.

    Such an exhausting day. It's hard not to respond to her message but I haven't. Gray rock/180 for the win. It must be frustrating not getting a response or reaction to what she says.

    Thank you EM. I hope you had a good day. I am beat.

    dl23
    1 person found this helpful
  22. ecomama
    Valued Contributor
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    ecomama avatar
    1629 posts
    19 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    Rest up dear dl23! No I had a pretty sh** day actually. Considered a course of action to prevent contact with my children by exs family now. They turned up to the chns workplace and all my chn were triggered pretty badly.

    All in all, it's raining now. I hope evil things upon them lol.

    BUT The very BEST revenge is living my best life!

    SO here I am with the best of them. 😁

    Dear dl23, this exW of yours is a nasty piece of work. She really is. I don't think you are, that's why it's so hard for you to see this or even believe this. I have some choice words to describe what she's doing but I shall restrain myself.

    KNOW she's doing everything she can to POKE you.
    IT WORKS!

    They KNOW the chinks in our armour. She KNOWS how much all of this would be hurting you. Hoping to bring you to your knees and concede to her demands.

    Never ever ever do this.

    Your precious was your family, home and car and pool lol etc.

    IDK but hers is... money? Controlling you and all the money you earn? IDK, that's what I see.

    If THIS is so, then can you IMAGINE how furious she is that YOU have sought the LEGAL PATH?
    Ahem the RIGHT path?
    You attempting to get this done right. Fair. Equitable. Transparent. Kids too!

    She was steamrollering you! She HAS NOT CARED you are sleeping on a freaking lounge with a bad back and for months.

    Grrrrrrr. GRRRRR.

    She's freaking because she's lost control over you.

    Turning this knowledge into your OWN power is the magic you can do and ARE doing.

    Yes it's sad, it's freaking horrible! But don't you dare let her bring you to breaking point.

    No I didn't mean anything else but the known debts 50/50... SHE DIDN'T WANT THESE.
    Heck no one does but aha she's realising she is going to cop it.
    And that's enough for her to be furious and react in the way she's doing.
    She wanted the house sold and shazzam - she'd be outta there. Leaving ALL debts to you.
    Taking control over whether you see the kids and when - what a worse nightmare!

    This is NOT an ideal situation but I think none are... Mr Paul and I are living testimony to other mine fields.

    This timing BENEFITS you. Use it. To sleep for one lol. Keep focussed. Let it also be a lived education for you.

    We will screen your dates later lol! Like all my friends say to me "You're too nice ecomama"... I'm not now lol!

    Sorry I was scrubbing all the crap off me from today and napping instead of freaking out.

    EM

    1 person found this helpful
  23. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    19 September 2020 in reply to ecomama
    Hi EM

    Sorry to hear you had a bad day yesterday. You are living your best life and have someone very special in your life, even if he is overseas (I assume he still is). You are very strong. And this strength you carry, has helped so many other people. I am eternally grateful for you being here.

    It's raining here too. Badly at 4:30am (couldn't sleep). Kids sport today :(. Been sunny all week.

    Yeah I can't believe how nasty exW has to be. I am not biting at any of it. Just ignore and move forward. I will just keeping implementing gray rock/180. Not responding to it.

    I think I will remove her and family members from FB. I can't see her profile anyway. Or leave it. IDK. Could show her weakness from my part as I am reacting. Maybe leave it to "act normal". Not that I use FB for posting stuff anyway anymore.

    I guess as she is ill informed about what mediation is, has possibly made her more angry.

    She must be more angry, like you said, about losing control. That is kind of her thing. Controlling situations and having things her way. Oh well. I am following FL and going in a straight line.

    I am going to have to tell oldest son this arvo. He already suspects something has obviously changed. I will move my clothes etc tomorrow morning when exW is not here. But she probably will be here which would make it more awkward doing it in front of her. I will have to tell youngest son tomorrow arvo, as I will be sharing bathroom/toilet with them both. ExW wanted to wait until settlement to tell him but she has forced my hand due to asking me to move my stuff. Really scared about telling them. Probably the hardest thing I will ever have to do.

    Yes. You will need to screen my dates lol. I find it scary and nerve racking thinking about dating and being with someone else. I have lots of guys I know that may have single female friends. So who knows, one day.

    Look after yourself.

    Thank you for making me feel better. This weekend is going to be tough telling the kids. I am depressed.

    Thanks

    dl23
  24. ecomama
    Valued Contributor
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    ecomama avatar
    1629 posts
    19 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    Hi dl23

    I really don't know how you're going to frame the conversation with the chn. I really don't. But perhaps you can get some snacks for afterwards and watch a movie together? The bonding & reinforcement that you're not leaving them is so important to a child right now.

    Also there'll be lots of questions you can't answer, that you don't even know the answers TO right now. Just reassure them both, I know they'll be told separately & I'm not sure if this is a good idea but they are your chn, that you'll always do your very best for them. They are your focus & that remains.

    Tell them about things that WILL stay the same. Also consider saying that you'll get eldest son a phone if you haven't already, so he / they can contact you at ANY time day or night 24/7 after separation (kids LOVE phones).

    Remember they are YOUR sons too and your strength, fortitude & commitment to protect them is important to convey.

    I'd leave FB as it is, Mr Paul?

    The situation of passive aggressive behaviour, coercive control & manipulation attempts created by exW is mind-f***ing. She's also gaslighting you. Later you can Google search these terms because they cause real psychological damage to victims and you need to know how to combat these. Also how to heal yourself from these injuries.

    Google is your friend but search for healing once you read the harm & techniques. You're suffering from this abuse, but your reactions are also fused with deep grief, so it's no wonder you feel depressed.

    I've also noticed high anxiety. These both together are really hard to handle & heal from.
    But heal from them you will. I know you will, bec you show discipline & commitment.

    It's seldom mentioned but 99.9% of the work of beating depression and anxiety is on US.
    WE have to do the work to get mentally well & maintain this.
    Drs can prescribe meds, you can get psych help, you can post here & all those things are like a gym to get fit.
    It can be there but you have to USE it. You have to do each exercise & increase / decrease repetitions. You have to know WHICH equipment (strategies) to use to build up specific areas of your body. Same with your mind.

    And you have control over your mind. You must take control over your mind, it's your most powerful machine in the mental gym.

    This takes time. I know you can do it.

    Grounding exercises for anxiety. You may need these before your talks with the boys. Push breath OUT of your lungs (not deep breaths in).

    You've got this.

    EM

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  25. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    19 September 2020 in reply to ecomama
    Hi EM

    Thank you.

    The snacks and movie after are a good idea. I think I will tell them both at the same time. I was going to tell youngest one tomorrow arvo after he has finished soccer game but it might be easier to tell them together in a bedroom.

    ExW has already cleared some space for me in the spare room cupboard. How very nice of her.

    I am just going to frame the conversation as sometimes married people don't get along and stop loving each other. I can use some of oldest sons footy mates as an example as some of them have separated parents. I will tell them none of it is their fault and that the love that mum and dad have for them will never change.

    I will ask them both what they have noticed differently lately and that will be my lead in. I will explain what happens next - selling of house, separates houses, split care and explain it doesn't matter what house their parents are in as long as we are together (dad+kids, mum+kids). I will tell them they are both number one to both of us. And also say it will be better having 2 happy parents separated then 2 parents unhappy together.

    I will bring the phone idea up, facetime, skype. All those communication things we can do.

    I am so anxious and scared to do this but it has to be done. No one else will do it. Breath out.

    I will tell them both after an early dinner.

    Not looking forward to this...at all.

    Thanks

    dl23
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  26. ecomama
    Valued Contributor
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    ecomama avatar
    1629 posts
    19 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    Hi dl23

    I hope you had a good day at kid's sports.

    Yes how very sweet of exW to clear out a cupboard.

    I guess you have to box the whole rest of it up and shove it in the garage.

    Well at least she's falling into the idea of the "long haul" and I wonder if legal advice has told her to do this... whatevs.

    IMO I do think it's best to tell both boys at the same time.

    It would be awful for eldest son to have to keep secrets from his brother, even for a short time.
    That experience alone could be daunting to him on top of the rest.

    I would speak only behalf of myself and if they have any questions for their mother then they can go to her and ask them (if they dare to). It's up to you how you do this.

    I'm just thinking of the children long term and their memories of things said. These can often be distorted by the chn over time.

    And the fact the children will together be going from one home to the other, their bond is extremely important.

    I know there is a 4y age gap or so?

    Many of mine were born at the same time. It's an 18th birthday for my multiple birth children tomorrow. They are adults tomorrow afternoon. And grand ones they are already.

    Please remember to tell the boys that it's okay to cry!
    Also that you're REALLY proud of them (as Aunty EM is very proud of you all).

    Hugs dl.

    This part will be over soon.

    EM

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  27. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    19 September 2020 in reply to ecomama
    Hi EM

    I would say possibly she would've had legal advice about the current situation recently.

    I really don't want to tell my kids today. They are in a happy mood. I am too chicken to do this. So much pressure on my shoulders. Can't I delay it until next week (holidays)? ☹

    I do feel they will become much closer through this separation stage due to always being together.

    Yes they are 4 years apart.

    I haven't been able to do any work on my computer as exW has been hiding in there all afternoon. I had grand plans to get stuff done. Not sure if it's a coincidence (hiding) after what she sent to me yesterday. Maybe she is typing up a massive email to send me or prepping some scary documents to send me. Who knows. I think something is coming, maybe telling the boys. IDK. We'll see if it becomes a regular thing or she returns to the loungeroom.

    I wonder if she has or will come across this post. If she has or will, "hello". Lol.

    Happy birthday to your kids for tomorrow. A big miletsone in their lives and yours. They would be proud of who their mum is. I wish I had someone as supportive and knowledgeable in RL like you.

    Thank you.

    dl23

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  28. ecomama
    Valued Contributor
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    ecomama avatar
    1629 posts
    19 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    Yeah well HELLO too exW! lol.

    If you're having a snoop, I'd like to say: "What a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive". That's Shakespeare btw.

    Dl23 I bought my own laptop at separation and one for the children and put passwords on both.
    when ex kept wanting to use them I said "buy your own".

    I digress.... moving on!

    You can wait as long as you like but you'll have this feeling until it's done and behind you all.

    Do the children ask alot questions of either or both of you?

    If so, then get ready for the barrage of questions when they see your stuff moving or in the spare room.

    If they don't.... well I'll share what one Detective said to me and the children: "You really are the family of zero questions. That's a worry"

    I said "Ok why?"

    She said "Because it tells me you have all been coercively controlled for a very long time. That's part of DV".

    I'll leave that with you.

    With only one week till school holidays it might be a better time for the boys.
    But the last thing you want is to have them being mind-effed too.

    Mr Paul WE MISS YOU.

    Yes I wish you were my friend IRL too dl23. So many of my friends have gone through marriage break ups. Some have leaned on me alot, some not at all really. One male friend has had Counselling for 7y post divorce but he had A LOT of childhood horrors to get help for. He still works 2 businesses and is pretty well known in his home state. We've been friends since 9yo but could barely communicate whilst married. I just texted him to check in.

    My BF still triggers pretty badly at times from this loss 6 years later.... but he won't seek psych help. It's come close to breaking us up. He's under immense pressure repairing Covid testing / making instruments from the top of America to the bottom, including Canada again very soon. He hasn't had a day off in almost a month and hasn't been home in as long either.
    The company denied his only 1 week Leave application.

    Not good.

    Reflect upon your timing with the boys.

    EM

    1 person found this helpful
  29. dl23
    dl23 avatar
    328 posts
    19 September 2020 in reply to ecomama
    Hi EM

    Mr Paul hope all is okay. Hopefully busy...in a good way.

    The kids generally talk a lot in general and tend to ask random questions about nothing. So they ask a lot of questions about everything and talk a lot like most kids do.

    I had a good 30 min messenger chat with mate who is helping with venture. It was like I got lost for a while... in a good way. He is making good money and it is getting me excited about it all. He is expanding which is very good for him and good for my motivation as well.

    Bad weather here. Hope it clears up for youngest' sport in the morning. It's hailing.

    Wow you have helped lots of people through separation/divorce. A lot of people will be better off having you as their friend.

    Sorry to hear about your BF and his bad times he experiences and the trauma. He must be so exhausted (and super human) working that much and then not being able to see you and to not have leave approved. Sounds like a very hard time for him...and you. I hope you can both see each other.

    As mentioned before, I have a feeling an email is coming to me tonight. Can I put an auto-responder on my email (and phone) saying my inbox is full and the email bounces back? πŸ˜‚. I don't want to communicate with her anymore. I see her email come up (surprisingly still the one with my last name) and it makes me sick and so anxious. I just want to block her like I have been "blocked" IRL for 4 months. Just so sick of her and the emails/sms'.

    I will think about my timing for the boys. They were so happy today. I couldn't do it to them.

    I hope I meet someone so nice and so loving one day. But I will be cautious, learn from my mistakes and be a different person next time around.

    I had a good high before but now low again. I have found if I focus on something like my venture, I am okay. I just couldn't get on my pc today.

    Thanks.

    dl23
  30. Mr Paul
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    Mr Paul avatar
    286 posts
    20 September 2020 in reply to dl23

    G'day dl and EM

    After 18 months of unnecessary legal expense, my exW finally signed the Consent Orders for property, and the Binding Financial Agreement (BFA). My lawyer wanted the BFA to stop her coming after me for spousal maintenance years down the track. In view of her litigious, vexatious behavior, a BFA was a necessary additional expense.

    I don't know how long it will take for the Federal Circuit Court to approve the BFA and the Consent Orders. I'm hoping it will all be finalised this year. Nothing happens fast in family Law.

    Now that I know the financial damage, I've been looking around for a new house. Lucky for me house prices are dropping where I want to buy, and rising where I have to sell. I'm hoping to come out of this with my shit on my back. Nothing like starting all over again after retirement.

    On the brighter side, after legal expenses, my exW will end up in a "dog box". Had she been more reasonable, she would have been much better off. Unfortunately, I don't think she has learnt a thing. She made one bad decision after another and blamed me for the consequences.

    Dl, for your information, my wife's biggest mistake was engaging a criminal lawyer that did not know a thing about family law. When you engage a lawyer, make sure s/he is FL accredited. Some lawyers hang a FL shingle on the door; this does not mean that they accredited. Choose your lawyer carefully; you will need one, especially if your wife chooses to go down the vexatious path.

    EM, I've been reading through some of the stuff Chump Lady has written. I found some of it relevant. Thanks for the reference.

    Cheers

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